how do you do that ?

@paddockjudge You could also add that a distillery like Jim Beam is using the same yeast since the beginning. They probably make sure it is the same in a more industrial environment today, but it is not coming fomr a provider. I am sure that many old distelleries do the same.

I saw that in a documentary and I really like it, some more originality to their craft!

I suggest we all fight about stuff we agree on.

Done.

Agreed!

All this talk about wet casks and it's impact on richness of flavour. I'd like to call on an example of one of the most delicious and complex whisk(e)ys I had the pleasure to try last year: Amrut Spectrum.

The coopers took various casks, ripped them apart, re-cut the staves to make new barrels and assembled new (reconditioned?) barrels. You can't tell me that a humid Southern Indian climate kept these pieces of oak moist for the entire process. Yet the final result is a whisky loaded with a long complicated finish.

@Frost, what conclusion do you suggest we draw from your example of a good whisky that didn't come from a sloshy cask?

@Frost, still I would believe that the wood retained some influence from the previous fill.

I was once at a tasting led by a chemist and he explained that the "flavor" of any spirit, whisky in this case, is basically different contaminants. He showed us graphs from different spirits that had gotten chemically analyzed. A vodka, distilled and stored in sterile tanks with no wood maturation was mostly a flat line with just a handful of peaks. The peaks represent different chemical contaminants, esters and oils, phenols and whatnot. The whisky looked like a mountain range in comparison, tons of peaks and valleys.

My point is that whatever you store distillate in will likely influence it. Except from the sterile tanks I guess... Also these contaminants are chemical compounds. I would believe that they will be absorbed into the cask aswell and remain there even if the cask is bone dry.

And on the same note, an oak tree isn't sterile either so even a Virgin oak cask will ofcourse impart it's own contaminants.

/endrant

@Alexsweden, I think a virgin cask can easily do more than a reused sloshy cask. After all, isn't that where the big flavor of bourbon comes from—all that virgin wood?

Although most cask ancestry is largely an additive process (wine or whatever from the previous generation soaked into the wood and then soaked back out into the whisky), I think people are right who say ex-bourbon cask ancestry is more significantly a subtractive process. The first generation of bourbon maturation "takes the hit" of all that new wood and reduces the cask's impact on later generations.

Aside from the obvious financial reasons to mature scotch in ex-bourbon barrels, the reason Scottish whisky makers mature in ex-bourbon isn't because they want to flavor their spirit with bourbon (as some claim), but because they want a more delicate wood impact on their (delicate) barley spirit.

@MadSingleMalt I 100% believe that too, that the cask gets less harsh with every fill.

@Alexsweden @MadSingleMalt - For me, therein lies the real beauty of Scotch - when it is properly matured.

My experience with older aged whiskies and those from bygone days are limited, but the appeal is in how the cask and spirit work together in the conditions they are in. I can't imagine Scotch working as well as it does if they just used virgin oak like bourbon. (n.b. I must try the Deanston VO)

It does make me wonder what early whisky tasted like though as I'd guess it was all filled in new oak and then repeated fills after solely(?) prior barley spirit content. If it was aged at all . . .

@MadSingleMalt I don't know what's going on in any distillery in Scotland that is making malt whisky if it's sloshy wet casks, ex-flavoured casks that are not (for lack of a better term) sloshing around with the previous liquid

@Alexsweden I agree 100% with your statement

I went to a whisky event and at the Glenfiddich table a brand ambassador imparted rather proudly (to paraphrase) "The 21 year old has been finished in barrels containing Caribbean rum", I asked him if he meant barrels that had previously been used for rum or if he meant it contained rum spirit. He said it contained rum spirit. I was definitely disappointed, but sceptical.

I enjoy whisky that has been placed inside flavoured casks, I like the influence from what I assume is the oak and the previous spirit. I hope it's not a few extra litres of the previous spirit sloshing about in the bottom.

I’m going to guess that glenfiddich brand ambassador was wrong. Ex rum casks yes - actual rum in the barrel? No. It’s actually called Gran Reserva Rum Cask Finish. It’s the same thing the sister distillery at Balvenie does with their 14 year old Caribbean cask whisky. And what glenfiddich have done with their special release IPA and ice wine finishes. They take ex spirit barrels and use them to finish their whisky in to create a unique character. The barrels don’t actually have any spirit ‘sloshing’ around in them. Any barrels that make their way from the US or Spain to Scotland do so in pieces. Cooperages then reassemble them. The staves obviously have some of the spirit they previous held (2+ years for Sherry, 3+ for Bourbon) soaked into them as mentioned previously. The staves are charred to facilitate the release of the flavours associated with the wood and spirit. That’s why whisky matured in ex sherry and ex bourbon casks have different flavour profiles. It’s partly the wood and partly the spirit that wood held. New make spirit has a vegetal taste - the rest of the complexity comes from the aforementioned aging in casks. Glenmorangie has made a practice of using different Malts and finishes to try to create unique flavour profiles, but they aren’t supposed to include other actual spirits or flavouring agents in a barrel. This whole thread seems an odd conversation to me. What’s the debate?

@nooch - I think it started by asking how did all the fruit fit into the casks?

@nooch The cask may not have any rum left in it, or wine, but some cask providers pressurized the cask to force the spirit into the staves. Who knows how many liters of the spirit is returned to the whisky after that? If you read @paddockjudge comments Fred Noe estimates that the wood of a Bourbon barrel hold about two American gallons. The question is when using pressure will the wood hold the spirit or will it give it back?

@nooch, I think this thread could have been titled "Let's All Speculate About Casks."

...and can't we just call them salesmen?

I mean, I didn't buy my old pickup from a "used car ambassador."

@MadSingleMalt You didn't? I only shop at my local Honda Brand Ambassador's place when getting my commuter vehicles. None of those proletarian "car sales lots" for me. I'm incredibly refined.

I mean, DOCTOR Nick "Diageo" Morgan is "Head of Whisky Outreach" or something...because he's not just some marketing/promo guy, doncha know...

@nooch not really debate, more like friendly conversation.

@Alexsweden, I disagree! It's a debate! Now stand back whilst I prove you wrong.

You boys behave or you'll be sent to bed without your drams.